tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8299268267657172129.post2786340171719181348..comments2023-10-31T05:19:13.500-07:00Comments on The Black Sea: Derin Devlet: The Deep StateBlack Seahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16347464061061628147noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8299268267657172129.post-55438031615083437492007-07-02T23:49:00.000-07:002007-07-02T23:49:00.000-07:00I think your points about the conflict between DoD...I think your points about the conflict between DoD and the neocons are very valid and insightful.<BR/><BR/>The neocons intellectuals are definitely bluer than DoD, but still very much red. The idea of reversing the degringolade of decolonialization, and once again bringing Western law, peace and prosperity to the Third World, is one that occurs spontaneously to many.<BR/><BR/>And the military establishment would love to do it, I'm sure - but only under terms that would actually work. Colonialism ended because it was no longer politically viable in the domestic political systems of the colonizers. This condition has hardly changed, and we see the result in Iraq, where the US army has to pretend to be a liberator rather than an occupier - a problem set up for failure.<BR/><BR/>DoD is like anywhere else and wants as much work as it can get, but only on terms under which it can succeed and look good. Certainly many saw such terms in Iraq, but not all, and they are rethinking now.<BR/><BR/>Basically, the red government invaded Iraq because it thought it would win, and victory would have brought it great prestige. But the blue government, which is always the Globetrotters in this game, made the rules, and as in Vietnam, they are rules under which the US military cannot win. Just the fact that the US does not control the Iraqi government means failure is almost inevitable.Mencius Moldbughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16472157249344139282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8299268267657172129.post-11699503719427229912007-06-27T10:08:00.000-07:002007-06-27T10:08:00.000-07:00Mencius,The "Blue-State Deep State, Red- State Dee...Mencius,<BR/><BR/>The "Blue-State Deep State, Red- State Deep State" or "Double Deep State" theory is intriguing, but I don't know what more I can say until you elaborate on it further. I await such elaboration on UR.<BR/><BR/>I might note that while the Red- State Deep State, exemplified by the DOD, is into expensive weapons systems, large-scale battalions, and foreign deployments, it is distinctly wary of actually wars. Too unpredicatable, too messy, too likely to call negative attention to the military. <BR/><BR/>They'd prefer that we view them as that Thin Green Line standing between us and Armageddon.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the military establishment was ever terribly keen on the Iraqi adventure, and to circle back to your point, I suspect that some elements of the DOD are not altogether displeased with the turn of events in Iraq. They perhaps see it as teaching the Neocons a lesson, and reminding everyone that things go better when we unswervingly prepeare ourselves for that never-to-be consumated titanic confrontation with the Russains, or perhaps it's now the Chinese.<BR/><BR/>That's the sort of war the DOD prefers, global in scope, immeasurable in consequence, and decidedly cold.<BR/><BR/>By the way, where do Rumsfeld, Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz, et al fit into the Blue State Red State schemata?Black Seahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16347464061061628147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8299268267657172129.post-91145393917850708862007-06-21T13:04:00.000-07:002007-06-21T13:04:00.000-07:00The comment above was mine. SorryThe comment above was mine. SorryRichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08960651924212712003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8299268267657172129.post-56024973186184663842007-06-21T12:58:00.000-07:002007-06-21T12:58:00.000-07:00There was a radio personality in Boston years ago ...There was a radio personality in Boston years ago who would say, "We are going to get the story behind the story."<BR/><BR/>I wish I had the story behind the story. Still, like astronomers who predict the finding of planets due to the gravity effect on known planets, the existence of a deep state here is impossible to deny.<BR/><BR/>An immigration amnesty that will probably be passed despite its rejection by the great majority is so obviously deep state stuff. No one from my state thinks Teddy* was capable of putting two words together on his own unless one is Chivas and the other Regal, let alone coming up with a bill.<BR/><BR/>All an individual can do is take note of the deep state's existence and order one's life accordingly. One can have little effect on its existence. It can have a lot on yours.<BR/><BR/>*Teddy may be fried, but his staff is efficient and will respond to the needs of individual constituents with some efficiency. Union workers on big projects have rarely missed a paycheck. People outside of the Commonwealth really don't have a picture of how Teddy (or his handlers) delivers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8299268267657172129.post-28353051757044666142007-06-20T22:02:00.000-07:002007-06-20T22:02:00.000-07:00BS,Thanks for mentioning this concept - I have alw...BS,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for mentioning this concept - I have always liked the Turkish concept of the "deep state." (Not that I have any affection for the organization itself - busts of Ataturk don't do much for me.)<BR/><BR/>I'm curious to see your answer - mine will come along at UR shortly. <BR/><BR/>Basically, I think the US has not one but two deep states - a red one and a blue one. The red deep state is perhaps best personified by DoD. Its blue counterpart is the State Department, but it is part of the whole I call the Polygon or extended civil service. This blue deep state is much larger, smarter, and more powerful than the red one, and the latter's actions only make sense in light of the former.<BR/><BR/>The war in Iraq is in fact an <I>American</I> civil war. You could call it a "civil war by proxy." It is taking place on Iraqi soil and the soldiers of the blue state are Iraqis (or at least Arabs), but the prize they are fighting for is political power in the US. The blue state will win, as it usually does, and the locals will get screwed, as they usually do. The same thing happened in Vietnam, which Iraq repeats as farce.Mencius Moldbughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16472157249344139282noreply@blogger.com